tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post1103328114382116274..comments2024-03-29T04:21:18.218-07:00Comments on dhamma musings: Batchelor And BuddhismShravasti Dhammikahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06246408068143301108noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-44619098243441260712022-01-19T03:08:53.023-08:002022-01-19T03:08:53.023-08:00Such a beautiful post. Keep writing about Buddhis...Such a beautiful post. Keep writing about <a href="https://www.burmese-art.com/" rel="nofollow"> Buddhism </a> more Buddha statueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17724052702016056311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-79346570565877796902010-10-26T00:59:35.414-07:002010-10-26T00:59:35.414-07:00Dear Yuri. Thank you again for your answers. I a...Dear Yuri. Thank you again for your answers. I am not a Facebook user..but ok..I will find you there after this.<br /><br />I thought Ehipassiko means to come see for yourself. Meaning see for yourself and you will believe it by yourself. Meaning you do not have to belive it just because I tell you so. And because the Dhamma is is so immediately apparent - Sanditthiko - the seeker will be able to see it quickly. And because it is timeless - akaliko - it remains relevant 2500 years later and beyond. why it remains relevant? Because the Dhamma is logic and sense. And through your meditation you have seen it and realize that Karma and Rebirth is true.<br /><br />Tweaking and changing so dratically just so that those who have difficulty accepting Rebirth is too much to do for a few who cannot or do not wish to see. I tend to think that such persons are used to the God idea and a one life and eternity therafter. So to have them accept that it takes more than one life time is just too much to take.<br /><br />Further, you who have realize that Karma and Rebirth is true. Then what if someone start off with the No-Karma-No-Rebirth and later to realize there is ?...what will happen to these people ? I really cannot imagine and fear the worst for them.<br /><br />I don't think that that is Batchelor's intention. To tweak just so that more people could accept the Way.MidPathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04539093477868222175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-84543213592919158282010-10-25T03:30:11.183-07:002010-10-25T03:30:11.183-07:00Dear MidPath, to find me in Face Book you can key ...Dear MidPath, to find me in Face Book you can key in Yuri Runov in search field. No dot in my name and capital letters are OK.yurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459608592333995535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-82271246202620645542010-10-25T02:33:41.157-07:002010-10-25T02:33:41.157-07:00Dear MidPath, "Ehispassiko" is a Pali wo...Dear MidPath, "Ehispassiko" is a Pali word that means that instead of blind faith, investigate for yourself and then make up your mind based upon the evidence. And that is why I am so gratefull to Buddha who did not demand that we should believe every word he said but find for ourselves in the course of practice. Even in the time of Buddha there were many people who did not believe in Karma and repeated births though this was still the most wide spread BELIEF. So Buddha adressed himself to all kind of people including those who did not believe in those two aspects. In the West there are very many people who do not accept multiple births and Karma as real facts of life. But should it be used as a pretext to close Buddhism for them? Buddha rejected this approach in Kalama Sutta. <br />I was one of those who did not believe in Karma and Rebirth. But I practised and as a result reached meditational break-through. And then I really discovered that these aspects of our existence were true. For example, in insights that followed my breakthrough I remembered certain long forgotten events in my early years where I was very wrong and immediately an event in my recent years came to my mind and I saw how these two events were connected. So it was Practice and not beliefs that discovered for me the real setup. <br />So it seems to me that Batchelor's approach can be useful for the Western mind. While in the East traditional approach can be more effective. But I cannot insist as I have not read the book. We could discuss more if you join FaceBook in English where I have my page, though I am not at the moment active there. It's "yuri.runov" page there. Metta!yurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459608592333995535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-79097984877693510592010-10-24T20:41:11.033-07:002010-10-24T20:41:11.033-07:00Yes Yuri, thank you for your answers and I am hono...Yes Yuri, thank you for your answers and I am honoured to receive your attention.<br /><br />Yes the less we judge, the better it is for our spiritual growth. Indeed! I learn this practice too, that to mindfully not allow negative thoughts to arise, and if it does, to let it go as soon instead of bearing such thoughts for too long. In other words...to maintain an equal mental position.<br /><br />Maintaining such an equal mental attitude is taught by the Buddha and reminded by HIS Sangha. So once more, please allow me to persuade for the sake of fellow walkers on the Path and especially for the beginners. <b>We should help them and protect them from being confused</b> with what Batchelor says. And both agreeing or disagreeing and express such..is also some form of judgment...agree?<br /><br />sorry I am not good at spelling...but I join you here on <b>Ehipasiko</b>...one of the words in praise of the Lord Buddha's Dhamma....Svakato Bhagavata Dhammo Sanditiko Akaliko..Ehipasiko Opanayiko Pacattam Veditabo Vinuiti...MidPathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04539093477868222175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-89391896972609620532010-10-24T08:50:33.996-07:002010-10-24T08:50:33.996-07:00Dear Yuri,
I am a bit disappointed with your last...Dear Yuri,<br /><br />I am a bit disappointed with your last post, since, it seems that all what I have written so far has passed completely unnoticed. I hope that at least some of the other users may have taken notice of what I wrote…<br /><br />On one hand you say to stick to practice, while on the other you rather inflexibly stick to your own interpretation of two small passages of a single Sutta, disregarding all what is found in the rest of the Canon (Pāli and Sanskrit) and also, disregarding even the possibility that the Kalamasutta could be understood in a different way. Rather than relying on practice, it seems to me that in this case you are relying on a very opinionated interpretation of the Dharma – without any openings towards changing your mind. But that’s just my impression, I could well be mistaken.<br /><br />Well, in my humble opinion you are confusing doing some Buddhist practice with being a Buddhist. These two things are quite distinct. Someone is a Buddhist if one takes Refuge Vows (and this has little sense if one does not believe in rebirth, since ‘Refuge’ means a remedy against the round of rebirths). On the other hand, even a non-Buddhist is very much welcome to try out some Buddhist practice and integrate it within one’s life. And this is all what had been suggested to Batchelor, even by Allan Wallace.<br /><br />If I may add, perhaps we should not assume that other people are practicing less, or less effectively, than we are - it's hard to tell and it's a very strange assumption to think of oneself as necessarily the best of practitioners. At least, it leaves me rather perplexed.<br /><br />Once again thank you for your kind contributions,<br />MaitrīKoSahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673488407171806241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-50150555083347139612010-10-24T08:21:49.966-07:002010-10-24T08:21:49.966-07:00Dear MidPath, I haven't read anything by Batch...Dear MidPath, I haven't read anything by Batchelor so I cannot and do not want to be a judge. I am sure that the less we judge others, the better it is for our spiritual growth. But a simple fact that he does not believe in reincarnation and kamma doesn't put him outside Buddhism if he is serious in practice. That was my only reason to participate in the discussion. I have to repeat it again that Buddha himself didn't consider this to be a must for his disciples. Practise, and you will learn these things later! Ehipassiko! That was Buddha's approach. No blind faith, but sensible and even common sense judgement on what is good and what is bad. And PRACTICE! About the triple refuge. Useful for many, no doubt! But when Ajahn Sumedho conducted a week-long retreat in Moscow, solemn taking this refuge as well as 5 precepts was planned for the last day. But when I achieved the breakthrough I had mentioned before, I saw that this ceremony was unnecessary for me, and left two days before. I lost all doubt about the Path suggested by Buddha, but I also understood that I was outside Buddhist Religion, though, of course, I consider all Buddhists, all seekers for Truth on the Way to Nibbana as my brothers and sisters. Metta!yurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459608592333995535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-92104404225749295372010-10-23T08:25:09.475-07:002010-10-23T08:25:09.475-07:00Dear Kosa, it must be a typo error.
Dear Yuri, on...Dear Kosa, it must be a typo error.<br /><br />Dear Yuri, once again thank you for your answers and I am glad that you clarified the serious problem as a result of premature knowledge. Yes I heard of and also experience the same myself and yes it is better not to decribe. It may frighten the beginners on the Path.<br /><br />Unlike you, who stop calling yourself a Buddhist, Batchelor who does, should not confuse and frighten the beginners for they may need the <i>vitamins</i> to move on. They need to take refuge to move along.<br /><br />And I agree with you that practice is the way and I hope can agree with me that right speech (or writings) is also practice.MidPathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04539093477868222175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-80697116491433895762010-10-23T05:38:06.258-07:002010-10-23T05:38:06.258-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.MidPathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04539093477868222175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-86954043979391967282010-10-22T12:40:46.197-07:002010-10-22T12:40:46.197-07:00Dear Yuri, perhaps you should address the last com...Dear Yuri, perhaps you should address the last comment to MidPath rather than me? (I think it would be nice towards him, considering that he is the one who asked you the question)<br /><br />Good luck with everything!KoSahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673488407171806241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-91467861672977004932010-10-22T12:33:48.474-07:002010-10-22T12:33:48.474-07:00Dear KoSa, there is nothing scary in what I call p...Dear KoSa, there is nothing scary in what I call premature knowledge. The problem is different - it sort of dampens desire to advance, or at least to advance fast... But I have overcome the problem by laying aside what I learnt till the appropriate time. Stopped thinking about that and returned to practice. But for some people it could become a sort of fixation and lead them astray into the realm of fantasising... Anyway, as far as I understand it happens extremely rarely before complete awakening. So there is no point in discussing it. <br />One thing about fear. When meditation becomes deeper, there may come a moment of blind fear, when your consciousness kind of bursts and starts expanding at tremendous speed - it is the moment when our ego becomes mortally frightened of disappearing and you hurriedly stop meditation and later you most probably will be afraid of going to deep levels. That is what used to happen to me. My teacher Ajahn Sumedho gave me a wonderful tip - to make that fear the object of attention! - to observe how it works in my body - tensed heart, clenched fists, sweat, spasms, fast breath... As soon as you really focus on that, the fear disppears and never returns. And then followed my break-through preceded with a gallery of faces of people who were my karmic predecessors. Men, ladies of various races - Euriopean, Indian, Japanese and even a Negro! :) And then came boundless Peace and Clarity... This is not yet enlightenment - but you definitely get the pre-taste of it and it triggers transformation processes of which I spoke before. I am sorry, I feel myself awkward in using Shravasti Dhammika blog for that. My own blog is only in Russian. So thank you for your interest in my experience, and wish you successful advance on the Path! Metta!yurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459608592333995535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-8924722270706506252010-10-22T04:13:19.489-07:002010-10-22T04:13:19.489-07:00Dear KoSa,
I'm glad I came back to read the l...Dear KoSa,<br /><br />I'm glad I came back to read the later exchanges. Sadhu! Sadhu!! Sadhu!!!Ken and Visakhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16713910044241151429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-48753864242488229662010-10-22T02:38:46.612-07:002010-10-22T02:38:46.612-07:00Dear Yuri,
Thank you for your answers. It is is r...Dear Yuri,<br /><br />Thank you for your answers. It is is rather scary for me as I have not gotten to the stage where I could practice that much like two sittings a day. Yes I will do so when the time comes when work is done. But what I do is practice mindfullness as much as I can throughout everyday.<br /><br />Scary because you say there is no Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, no karma and no rebirth. You added that premature knowledge that created a serious problem for further advancement.<br /><br />I am both curious and yet afraid to know.MidPathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04539093477868222175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-13324826476306587592010-10-21T00:14:06.579-07:002010-10-21T00:14:06.579-07:00Dear MidPath, no, I do not mean Sunnata (Shunyata)...Dear MidPath, no, I do not mean Sunnata (Shunyata) - which is just another state of mind, helpful for reaching our goal. And it is not what lies there - at the end of the Path. I am reluctant to speak about that as so far I have only seen glimpses of that and not the full picture. But Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha are indeed not needed there. They are like vitamins to keep us moving from here to there. :) Moreover, what is there is difficult to describe in our usual terms and also what can be described is better not described at all. In my case it was premature knowledge that created a serious problem for further advancement. <br />About my practice. First and foremost - two meditation sittings - before going to bed and early in the morning about 5 or 6 o'clock (the best time!) . I do not reach deep states every time but I do nor worry about that. But when I reach them something always happens. Indescribable peace and clarity. But no special ideas spring up, or answers to questions. This happens later like unexpected insights - sort of flashes in my mind - in ordinary life. Amidst usual events or during contemplation on something. Plus to this I practise mindfulness when I am not too busy and it gradually becomes a habit. Fruit of these two techniques is sweet indeed. Growing understanding of myself and others, growing kindness and compassion, growing feeling of the moment. And disappearing irritation, anger and fears. That is the reason for my insistance on practice - it has transformed my life in many wonderful ways. Thank you very much for asking these questions!yurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459608592333995535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-22584474260678322182010-10-19T10:03:29.597-07:002010-10-19T10:03:29.597-07:00Dear Yuri,
Are you talking about Emptiness or Sun...Dear Yuri,<br /><br />Are you talking about Emptiness or Sunyata? If not, please excuse and ignore me, if yes then perhaps you may have forgotten the two aspects Emptiness.<br /><br />Emptiness does not deny the existence of each and every thing but it denies the existence of a fixed and unchanging self behind each and every thing.<br /><br />You have acquired direct knowledge.<br />But others may be sway to realize the second aspect without the first and will believe that nothing is worth striving for as everything is hollow and meaningless.<br /><br />Separately, can you share with us on what is in your days practice and how.MidPathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04539093477868222175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-66182704630539536482010-10-19T01:33:00.975-07:002010-10-19T01:33:00.975-07:00Dear Yuri,
it is kind of you to share your impres...Dear Yuri,<br /><br />it is kind of you to share your impressions about your own personal practice. As for the passage you have mentioned, I wonder whether you may have confused the word 'dharmas' with the Dharma? The sense is quite different.<br /><br />MettaKoSahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673488407171806241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-7852527644649597342010-10-19T00:46:47.538-07:002010-10-19T00:46:47.538-07:00Dear KoSa, I would only like to add that I stopped...Dear KoSa, I would only like to add that I stopped calling myself a Buddhist when I learnt that there, where the Path leads us to, there is no Buddha, no Dhamma, no Sangha, no Kamma, no Rebirth... They are good for small initial steps. But we should not be too strongly attached to them. And if you need some confirmation from Buddha here it is: «When a bhikkhu's mind, through absence of lust, does not attach to those dhammas which encourage attachment, is not averse ... is not deluded ... is not intoxicated, he will be without dread or perturbation, fear or horror, and will feel no need to believe in anything, even the words of a sage." [A.II.120] Believe me. I am only trying to help, though you may of course see it differently. Metta!yurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459608592333995535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-42186220135242352262010-10-18T11:08:50.846-07:002010-10-18T11:08:50.846-07:00Dear Yuri,
the fact that the term Noble Disciples...Dear Yuri,<br /><br />the fact that the term Noble Disciples is a possible translation in some contexts does not mean that it is the best one in all contexts. In this case, I believe the other translation (‘Disciples of the Noble Ones’) to be preferable, for reasons I gave you above (and I am not the only one to think that, please check the available translations). The reason (I repeat it) is that if we take the term ‘Noble’ in its strict sense of someone who has realized selflessness, it would be impossible for the same person not to have realized karma and rebirth as well (because, it would mean not having understood even the basics of dependent arising). <br /><br />If you think discussion, of a question and answer type, does not help your practice, then I would certainly recommend you not to answer any further and rather concentrate on what you find more meaningful. Please do not feel in any way obliged to answer. But thank you for the attention so far.<br /><br />MettaKoSahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673488407171806241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-68157638703719706122010-10-18T10:40:53.918-07:002010-10-18T10:40:53.918-07:00Dear KoSa, you wrote "in that case, the trans...Dear KoSa, you wrote "in that case, the translation ‘disciples of the Noble Ones’ is a pertinent distinction, because it would be self-contradictory to say that someone is a Noble One & is not sure about rebirth (since, becoming a Noble One entails becoming 100% sure about rebirth)". And I show that NOBLE DISCIPLES is the term used and Buddha said that they can practise without believing in rebirth and kamma. The meaning is that they will learn about those aspects themselves as I have learnt. Here is the obvious example of the precedence of practice over theoretical points and disputes. It is obvious that we will not be able to persuade each other to accept our points of view. And what is so important about points of view? So why waste time which can be better used for PRACTICE! :) ) ) With practice comes DIRECT KNOWLEDGE when there is no longer any need to leaf through thick volumes even if they are called holy scriptures. With metta!yurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459608592333995535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-75918639668545177662010-10-18T06:12:01.473-07:002010-10-18T06:12:01.473-07:00Thank you Yuri, of course that's correct and f...Thank you Yuri, of course that's correct and fairly obvious. But I don't understand - how does it affect my line of argumentation? I think I am missing something.KoSahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673488407171806241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-28238909419014423502010-10-18T05:56:23.993-07:002010-10-18T05:56:23.993-07:00Dear Kosa, this is to inform you that Buddha did c...Dear Kosa, this is to inform you that Buddha did call his disciples as "noble disciples" - "ariya savako". And savaka - disciples included monks and lay people.yurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459608592333995535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-3702441834739901812010-10-14T00:24:42.532-07:002010-10-14T00:24:42.532-07:00This is the trouble with people. It is nothing oth...This is the trouble with people. It is nothing other than cravings. Crave for popularity and recognition. So they try to raise some eyebrows. If Batchelor reject the core teachings then why use HIS name? Might as well claim a new findings and call it Batchelorism and refrain from aligning his findings with Buddhism.MidPathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04539093477868222175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-82061704089792505962010-10-13T02:58:47.101-07:002010-10-13T02:58:47.101-07:009 + 18 + 27 + 36 + 72 = 162.
1 + 6 + 2 = 9
O...9 + 18 + 27 + 36 + 72 = 162.<br />1 + 6 + 2 = 9<br /><br />Only the number 9 can add up this way. Can anyone explain why the number 9 add up this way.<br /><br />999 - 9 + 108 - 36 = 1062<br />1 + 0 + 6 + 2 = 9MidPathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04539093477868222175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-56745364972343251512010-10-12T05:44:38.890-07:002010-10-12T05:44:38.890-07:00Dear Kosa, I see no point in prolonging this philo...Dear Kosa, I see no point in prolonging this philosophical discussion. You do not have to spend your time to convince me about rebirth and kamma as I have discovered that they are there from my practice. But before it happened I was least concerned about them - what I really concentrated on was practice - exactly how Buddha advised us in Kalama Sutta. And this worked. And though I acquired that direct knowledge of kamma and rebirth, I stopped calling myself a Buddhist. I no longer need any refuge, I no longer need any teacher, unless he is a fully enlightened one, but most modern teachers have not yet reached even the stage of sotapanna. I no longer need scriptures - I know what I should do but it is now only the problem of time and concentrated, diligent effort... And I know now that long discussions on Dhamma with lots of quotations are just another distraction. So my recommendation is - practise!yurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459608592333995535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-56362782229119595082010-10-12T02:49:20.721-07:002010-10-12T02:49:20.721-07:00However, for the sake of honesty and clarity, let ...However, for the sake of honesty and clarity, let me add this:<br /><br />Batchelor is not the first to have put forth such a position. In fact, some Japanese Zen masters (despite the warnings of the very great Zen Masters like Dogen, quoted by Wallace) have in recent times put forth similar ideas. I also believe that if one criticizes Batchelor’s position in this way, one should extend the criticism to some of Ven.Buddhadasa’s own writing. Because of all this, I think that Wallace's criticism was on occasion to person-specific.<br /><br />I would like to make it clear that for me it’s not a matter of implicit authority in the speaker, but of philosophical depth and of cogency in reading the sources (and I think someone who denies rebirth in Buddhism lacks both). For someone to deny the importance of rebirth in Buddhism is as arbitrary as someone saying that the Four Noble Truths were never taught in Buddhism, only Three Noble Truths were taught. If someone were to state that, I would think it’s incoherent exegesis (or, the person can’t read). Once again – being open is one thing, but being careless and self-referential is another.<br /><br />One great Pali scholar, Prof.Gombrich, was apparently asked whether he is a Buddhist. He said that he really admires Buddhism, but he cannot be a Buddhist, because rebirth is crucial to the Buddhist teachings and he cannot find it plausible.<br /><br />I think that's a cogent and honest position, which one may take while integrating aspects of the Buddhist path in one's life. I also believe Batchelor should perhaps do the same.KoSahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673488407171806241noreply@blogger.com