tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post1372636489311106420..comments2024-03-27T23:37:20.556-07:00Comments on dhamma musings: Can Killing Sometimes Be Justified?Shravasti Dhammikahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06246408068143301108noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-34225065517980650092017-03-14T12:25:39.554-07:002017-03-14T12:25:39.554-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13227281889294545737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-87723775237606494932016-04-21T13:36:14.991-07:002016-04-21T13:36:14.991-07:00Thanks for the nice blog. It was useful for me. I&...Thanks for the nice blog. It was useful for me. I'm happy I found this blog. 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If the flowers are important, perhaps repellents rather than insecticides should be used.<br /><br />Re: Nature's law is that living beings may feed on each other.<br /><br />Reply: Buddha-nature’s ‘law’ is that we can choose kinder diets too.<br /><br />Re: As for the first precept, if we didn't kill the living being out of anger and hatred, I think we are pretty safe along that line.<br /><br />Reply: Some Buddhists believe it is impossible to kill without some element of hatred. I tend to believe so too. But as much as possible, let’s avoid experimenting to find out.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17780439316316525424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-57761967081106192042010-03-07T18:51:46.507-08:002010-03-07T18:51:46.507-08:00Gui Do: 'As I said, as a bug I wouldn't ca...Gui Do: 'As I said, as a bug I wouldn't care. It's quite normal for a bug to be killed.'<br /><br />Reply: But you are not a bug. How would you know bugs don't care or that if you become a bug, you wouldn't care? If it's a truth that all bugs don't care whether they get killed or not, and think it it normal to be killed, why did the Buddha teach the below - <br /><br />From http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/vin/cv/cv.05.06.01x.olen.html is a Metta Verse taught by the Buddha in the Vinaya:<br /><br />For those without feet, I have love.<br />I have love for all with two feet.<br />For those with four feet, I have love.<br />I have love for all with MANY feet.<br /><br />May those without feet do me no harm.<br />May none with two feet do me harm.<br />May those with four feet do me no harm.<br />May none with many feet do me harm.<br /><br />May all beings, all living things,<br />All who've come to be — one and all —<br />May they see every blessing!<br />May no evil at all come to them! <br />_________<br /><br />Sorry for sounding like a broken record but Metta is meant to be immeasurable - for all beings - including those with many feet. Try to squish an ant and it runs away. Sentient beings fear death and crave to live. Bugs care not to be killed. As a popular Buddhist wish goes, may all beings be well and happy. May all beings be free from fear and suffering.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17780439316316525424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-55252042264324278172010-03-06T08:49:35.635-08:002010-03-06T08:49:35.635-08:00Dharma: "Would you want someone to bow and st...Dharma: "Would you want someone to bow and strike you if you are a bug?"<br /><br />As I said, as a bug I wouldn't care. It's quite normal for a bug to be killed.<br /><br />"To do better in metta" - yes, that's why I bow. Still, I avoid relative categories.GiDohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00037285400565881820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-82984323075087251302010-03-04T17:17:02.965-08:002010-03-04T17:17:02.965-08:00Apologies. Correction: The 'quotes' should...Apologies. Correction: The 'quotes' should be the other way round -<br /><br />Re: "Then it's certain, monks, that that monk didn't suffuse the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will, he would not have died after having been bitten by a snake." <br /><br />Reply: Quite a serious misquote above. It should be this way: "Then it's certain, monks, that that monk didn't suffuse the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will. For if he had suffused the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will, he would not have died after having been bitten by a snake…” (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.067.than.html )Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17780439316316525424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-54094516503695360552010-03-04T17:12:46.570-08:002010-03-04T17:12:46.570-08:00Re: "Then it's certain, monks, that that ...Re: "Then it's certain, monks, that that monk didn't suffuse the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will. For if he had suffused the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will, he would not have died after having been bitten by a snake…”<br /><br />Reply: Quite a serious misquote above. It should be this way: ""Then it's certain, monks, that that monk didn't suffuse the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will, he would not have died after having been bitten by a snake." (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.067.than.html )<br /><br />Re: “And the Ven. Hongyi - fine for him to bless the bug, but the bug doesn't care. The reason is simple - the bug doesn't have our problems, i.e. it doesn't suffer in the way the Buddha spoke of (mentally).”<br /><br />Reply: If bugs don’t care because they don’t have our problems and if we don’t need to care for as many sentient beings as we can, why would the Buddha teach us the Metta Sutta at all? Why not just be honest and admit that one is lacking in Metta and train harder? <br /><br />“As a mother would risk her life to protect her child, her only child, even so should one cultivate a LIMITLESS heart with regard to ALL beings. With good will for the ENTIRE cosmos, cultivate a limitless heart: Above, below, & all around, unobstructed, without enmity or hate.” (Metta Sutta)<br /><br />Re: “So my advice is: Do something for you - bow - than strike.”<br /><br />Reply: Very merciless indeed. Would you want someone to bow and strike you if you are a bug? Bow? “…but the bug doesn't care.” All sentient beings fear death and crave to live though.<br /><br />"As I am, so are others ; as others are, so am I."<br /> Having thus identified self and others, <br /> harm no one nor have them harmed.<br />-The Buddha (Sutta Nipata 705)<br /><br />Re: “If the Venerable had done that all his life, he would never have finished any Buddhist curriculums.”<br /><br />Reply: Please do research on Venerable Hongyi. He is one of the most respected Mahayana Vinaya masters in recent Chinese history, and a prolific scholar too. You can see a review of his film at <br /><br />Re: “If he'd use a magnifier, what else would he see living?<br /><br />Reply: The point is to do better in Metta – especially with sentient beings we can see. The Buddha did not teach us to be ‘extreme’ like Jain monks, who shield themselves from microbes with masks. Some Buddhists believe too, that microorganisms are not complex enough to be sentient life; and are more like plant life.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17780439316316525424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-46602965268531217232010-03-04T10:14:37.248-08:002010-03-04T10:14:37.248-08:00""Then it's certain, monks, that tha...""Then it's certain, monks, that that monk didn't suffuse the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will, he would not have died after having been bitten by a snake."<br />ARRGH!<br /><br />And the Ven. Hongyi - fine for him to bless the bug, but the bug doesn't care. The reason is simple - the bug doesn't have our problems, i.e. it doesn't suffer in the way the Buddha spoke of (mentally). So my advice is: Do something for you - bow - than strike. If the Venerable had done that all his life, he would never have finished any Buddhist curriculums. If he'd use a magnifier, what else would he see living?GiDohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00037285400565881820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-14381801944610892412010-03-04T06:13:29.386-08:002010-03-04T06:13:29.386-08:00What would the Buddha do? The Buddha would never k...What would the Buddha do? The Buddha would never kill a single insect out of disgust. If we feel compelled to kill out of disgust, it only means there is lack of Metta. Do practise Metta more - and make it truly immeasurable - for the welfare of all sentient beings. Thank you - on the behalf of all beings. <br /><br />From http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/vin/cv/cv.05.06.01x.olen.html is a Metta Verse taught by the Buddha in the Vinaya:<br /><br />For those without feet, I have love. <br />I have love for all with two feet. <br />For those with four feet, I have love. <br />I have love for all with many feet. <br /><br />May those without feet do me no harm. <br />May none with two feet do me harm. <br />May those with four feet do me no harm. <br />May none with many feet do me harm. <br /><br />May all beings, all living things, <br />All who've come to be — one and all — <br />May they see every blessing! <br />May no evil at all come to them! <br /><br />Without limit is Buddha. <br />Without limit is Dhamma. <br />Without limit is Sangha.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17780439316316525424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-32537915159196249012010-03-04T06:00:18.538-08:002010-03-04T06:00:18.538-08:00Sam Jerga: 'Dharma - Does donating the mattres...Sam Jerga: 'Dharma - Does donating the mattress also apply to one donating ones house to termites? Or perhaps good health to cockroach infestations?'<br /><br />Reply: You just need to let go of that part of your house infected by termites. E.g. a cupboard. As mentioned, 'From experience with many bugs, you just need to radiate genuine metta and urge them to leave. There are many cases of this working all over the world. This works when there are many insects too.' This applies to cockroaches too. <br /><br />Please try metta and chanting before resorting to killing. The Buddha would agree too. Please study Ahina Sutta to learn about the importance of good will and metta.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17780439316316525424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-33899314531929688422010-03-04T02:35:14.598-08:002010-03-04T02:35:14.598-08:00For those who believe in kammaic effect, I guess s...For those who believe in kammaic effect, I guess such a kammaic effect would not only correspond to the nature of the intention of the "killer", but also to the nature of the sentient being that was killed. If the sentient being has very little self-consciousness (e.g. as compared to human beings' ability to do reflection) or very little ability to feel pain or to think in their own language "I am in pain" (and some may not be able to think), it may mean the suffering of that sentient being is much much much lower than a "higher" animal such as human beings. The lower the suffering, the lower the kammaic effect on the "killer", if all other things are held constant. So killing a bed bug may bring less kammaic effect than killing a monkey or dog or human being. And if the killer's intention is "skilful", that may reduce further any kammaic effect (perhaps reduced to zero or almost zero?).reasonablehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14971948580051107601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-51167949697119641872010-03-04T02:17:24.472-08:002010-03-04T02:17:24.472-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Sam Jergahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12501697643895235084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-45116521426177794342010-03-04T00:36:00.623-08:002010-03-04T00:36:00.623-08:00Bhante,
I, too, would like to thank you for addre...Bhante,<br /><br />I, too, would like to thank you for addressing this topic. Clearly it is something we have all had to deal with it at one time or another, which is undoubtedly why your post has generated so much response.<br /><br />I do think it is sometimes necessary to kill, such as in the case of insects that pose a threat to our health. However, it can never be a entirely wholesome act. When one must resort to this, it is important to examine one's intentions and not act out of pure hatred and aversion. Instead one should think, "I am doing this to protect my own health and/or that of others" and wish the insects a beneficial rebirth. In that case, it would certainly be a mitigating factor in terms of the negative karma because there is also compassion involved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-89264382588008512122010-03-04T00:28:27.737-08:002010-03-04T00:28:27.737-08:00Sorry, I forgot to add the below to share:
From a...Sorry, I forgot to add the below to share:<br /><br />From a film review at http://tinyurl.com/hongyi :<br /><br />Ven. Hongyi is renowned for his mindfulness of abiding by the precepts, and his advocating of compassion in the small details. For example, he authored the famous ‘护生画集’ (Poem & Pictorial Series on Protection of Life). When I first heard of his inspiring conduct many years ago, the anecdote that impressed me the most was how he would always make it a point to inspect chairs for the possible presence of bugs before sitting on them. This touching practice has since made me sensitive to insects since – in the positive sense. In the film, he carefully scoops a bed bug from his head, before laying it down, chanting ‘Amituofo’ (Amitabha Buddha) to bless it. I sincerely hope those who see this scene will learn to be similarly kind to animals.<br /><br />From http://tinyurl.com/sadinsects :<br /><br />Tit: Hey, why spray the insects?<br />Tot: Because they are pests. (Tot is four years old.)<br />Tit: Because Tot wants to kill them, Tot is a big pest to them!<br />Tot: But they sometimes dirty the place.<br />Tit: Because Tot sometimes dirty the place too, should we spray Tot too?<br />Tot: Oh no! Mummy and Daddy will be sad.<br />Tit: Hey, insects have Mummies and Daddies too!moonpointerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04141339963282120527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-51636074208024414082010-03-04T00:02:37.542-08:002010-03-04T00:02:37.542-08:00if you kill a living being with intention of killi...if you kill a living being with intention of killing as you did, u have collected bad karma of it.We can't justify you.Times Eyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05502516625819524917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-35626028829464831542010-03-03T20:51:53.779-08:002010-03-03T20:51:53.779-08:00The Ahina Sutta tells of how a monk died after hav...The Ahina Sutta tells of how a monk died after having been bitten by a snake. The Buddha remarked so<br /><br />"Then it's certain, monks, that that monk didn't suffuse the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will, he would not have died after having been bitten by a snake."<br /><br />The Sutta can be seen at<br />http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.067.than.htmlmoonpointerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04141339963282120527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-81342102558179897692010-03-03T20:37:41.738-08:002010-03-03T20:37:41.738-08:00There's no need to kill. What's worse is t...There's no need to kill. What's worse is that the killing was from aversion. It is clearly breaking of the first precept.<br /><br />From experience with many bugs, you just need to radiate genuine metta and urge them to leave. There are many cases of this working all over the world. This works when there are many insects too.<br /><br />You can also donate your mattress to the bugs by discarding it where few people frequent.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17780439316316525424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-736745495363772362010-03-03T19:11:42.416-08:002010-03-03T19:11:42.416-08:00I concur that Bhante Dhammika's so-called &quo...I concur that Bhante Dhammika's so-called "blatant disregard" for the Dhamma is a little misinformed. The Buddha has always advocated questioning of everything one has seen or heard, and he even encourages his own disciples to question his teachings and not accept them unless they are truly convinced after much contemplation.<br /><br />Bhante Dhammika did not kill the bedbugs and go around encouraging others to take life wantonly. His blog entry was clearly meant to make people think hard about the first precept, and this is very much in line with what the Buddha had always stood for when he was alive and teaching.<br /><br />Besides, Bhante Dhammika is a monk, a member of the Sangha, not the Buddha. While he is more learned than the rest of us here, a lot more skillful than the rest of us in his everyday actions, he is not perfect. He's still striving for perfection, and he's probably miles ahead of everyone else here commenting on his blog, so I don't see why should anyone criticise him for killing a couple of bedbugs.<br /><br />I'm not excusing Bhante Dhammika's breaking of the first precept, but as someone else rightly pointed out in this thread of comments, Bhante's act is probably akin to throwing a tablespoon of salt into a lake. Breaking of any of the precepts are all too easy in the worlds of samsara, and I believe the Buddha would have encouraged his disciples not to be too perturbed by the occasional transgression because if one gets too caught up in a small mistake, that's a sure way of walking away from the Middle Path.<br /><br />What's more important is to learn from the episode and find ways not to repeat the act again. The point of being a practising Buddhist is to strive for perfection, not to be perfect, for if one is perfect, then he/she is no longer a Buddhist, but a Buddha.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02909613260844963526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-62099208968943783442010-03-03T08:58:10.772-08:002010-03-03T08:58:10.772-08:00Someone here commented that "With all due res...Someone here commented that "With all due respect, perhaps sharing such blatant disregard for Dhamma-vinaya with the entire world isn't such a good idea. Like it or not, you are a representative of the Dhamma to many people (Buddhist and non-Buddhist alike) so your implicit advocation of breaking the first precept might send the wrong message. I sympathize with your plight but maybe you could find other ways of solving the problem."<br /><br />On the contrary, the Venerable's sharing is of great virtue, showing forth the virtue of truthfulness and honesty, which would touches the heart of many Buddhist readers (and touches me too, a Christian). Other Buddhists who are facing very similar dilemma could be encouraged in their struggles as they see the Venerable struggling together with them.<br /><br />Too often people try to put up a nice good front and hide the ugly things in a closet. <br /><br />So what the Venerable has done really get my respect.reasonablehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14971948580051107601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-57678649933757346632010-03-03T07:34:42.359-08:002010-03-03T07:34:42.359-08:00True, you asked: "how will a person know when...True, you asked: "how will a person know when he is suffering from his action of killing?"<br />Well, he will not (besides those legal effect that might take place). The Christians speak of "teleology" as the idea of manhood moving towards a higher aim or goal. The same idea is involved in karma, when Theravadin monks explain to me that even a fly can "move up" by doing good (a Burmese abbot just did that) within the six worlds or six realms - where animals are in a lesser world than men, of course. <br /><br />Well then, we may explain - although it still is speculation - that in former lives there was some wrong deed leading to a suffering in this life. But what about the opposite? Why can people like, say Kissinger and Pinochet, get away? That means there former lives must have been full of good deeds. But according to the karma teaching, it would then be impossible for them to "move down" to the cruel deeds they were involved in. As we see, this idea doesn't really help, except for those who need cheap comfort. Cutting karma for zennies is then destroying such illusions. <br /><br />And finding out that if there is no consistent ego - there can of course be no personal karma attaching to you over different lives. Actually what we may suffer then would rather be the karma someone else - or whole manhood - has created, because it cannot continue on a (non-existent) ego. Those skandhas that form some sort of obvious consistency in our current live - the "me" talking to "you" and the you, True, writing to me - is all we can judge from. And there, obviously, this karma theory doesn't go deep enough. <br /><br />From the zen point, it is impossible to kill s.th. that you are one with. You see the inherent buddha-nature of the bug that you share with it - and you know it cannot be destroyed. All that you destroy is what will end with yourself - the skandhas etc. This is ethically tricky, if you don't feel - like I do - that quite instinctively we don't do it to our own breed - mankind (except in cases of self-defence).<br /><br />I fear that I am abusing the comment function here. But in my own blog topics like killing, vegetarianism and of course sexuality also tease the strongest reactions. May it give Bhante some more ideas for future blog topics. It is an ongoing debate between Buddhist schools.GiDohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00037285400565881820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-72981497981014273382010-03-03T07:30:17.792-08:002010-03-03T07:30:17.792-08:00Thank you for writing on this. It is something I ...Thank you for writing on this. It is something I have questioned frequently- at what point do we make the determination that our comfort/safety is more important than the lives of another. I keep it on the insect level, thankfully I don't have to struggle about eating meat or murdering a human :). <br />I am very allergice to bees and have not thought twice about using a can of poison when I've seen a hive in my yard, it really is me or them. However I do know that even if we kill in self defense it will reflect on our karma. But does that mean we shouldn't? <br />I don't know.. but I appreciate you posing the question.Magpiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01247837266970135128noreply@blogger.com