tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post6487066074477133225..comments2024-03-28T14:11:24.265-07:00Comments on dhamma musings: Crazy Wisdom Or Just Crazy?Shravasti Dhammikahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06246408068143301108noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-2592774544700570202024-03-14T10:37:58.890-07:002024-03-14T10:37:58.890-07:00Thank you Momus1. I have just read this entire bl...Thank you Momus1. I have just read this entire blog after reading "Crazy Wisdom" by Chogyam Trungpa for the 3rd time. I believe you to be absolutely correct in what you say in response to this thread, specifically where you refer to what you deem as 'probably the gold standard'. The only part of the book that resonates with me is the "hopelessness" of attempting to understand the great mystery by means of the intellect alone, yet this forum is full of people mincing details and becoming lost in a circle of dualistic tittle-tattling that ultimately doesn't resolve anything at all (aside from displaying that such means do not resolve anything); to me, that incapsulates the message of his thesis on "hopelessness" contained within the book. I am not an expert as this is the only book on the subject that I have read, and the only work by Chogyam Trungpa, but I couldn't help but notice that during every other point he attempts to make in the book, he is basically unable to articulate himself very skillfully at all, or give a credible example of how this wisdom can be put to any actual use. In addition, he makes no mention of compassion (compassion being the only actual use, to my mind) and certainly does not read as though he understands what you describe as 'probably the gold standard'. I personally feel him to be a victim of ill-fitting means of teaching and was born under great pressure to hold up an image of something he was unable to grasp - and quite rightly so, as the teaching is far from complete. His very life story and example serves to demonstrate that such wisdom, or anything for that matter, in the absence of love, cannot stand up in the face of karma. There is enough abuse in the world, without then also receiving it from somebody who claims they have the right to abuse you some more as some kind of 'crazy' solution and justification for basically being unskillful. I wish love and light to all who have suffered, including Trungpa himself, as I feel this is the vital insight that was missing from the message in that particular work.we are therefore we arehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09793254746944041911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-73787781428974257032019-11-11T19:31:51.282-08:002019-11-11T19:31:51.282-08:00I don't have any problems with crazy wisdom, a...I don't have any problems with crazy wisdom, as long as it's restricted to: when dealing with an irrational person, it is perhaps irrational to be rational with them. Beyond that, it's a recipe for disaster. And yet.....when we "wake up" (don't like to use the E word), we see that everyday reality within whatever culture we live in is downright crazy. Such is samsara. If someone is operating with a clear mind, unhindered by conditioning and habitual thought, they may appear to be behaving crazy within the confines of samsara. It's all relative. But harming people isn't relative. That's probably the gold standard for deciding what is crazy wisdom and what is right action. momus1https://www.blogger.com/profile/16413172482639227614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-527708826293395812018-12-22T19:18:04.474-08:002018-12-22T19:18:04.474-08:00Trungpa Rinpoche's crazy wisdom has wreaked ha...Trungpa Rinpoche's crazy wisdom has wreaked havoc and hurt many victims even until today. Everything has consequences. His karma passed onto his son and the Shambala institution. More info: tricycle.org/trikedaily/shambhala-abuse and andreamwinn.com/offerings/bps-welcome-pageBGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00052039559956598303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-36474288562389653262016-07-02T13:16:18.792-07:002016-07-02T13:16:18.792-07:00Why is it that every Chogyam Trungpa article I rea...Why is it that every Chogyam Trungpa article I read on a blog ends up in some commentary on his morality? To me all of these rushes to dismiss and judge say more about our shadow and our psychological boogie-men than it does about him. It says more about our desire to separate holy from non-holy in this world of corporeal embodiment. Does the west understand tantricas? The relationship established between methods of experience and unsettling oneself for growth/furthering-emptiness? The only reasonable answer to all of these intrigues and concerns about tantra is to stop pointing fingers and to look into oneself.OldPathWhiteCloudshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01412965938765886829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-80419994076934849482016-05-05T13:23:23.298-07:002016-05-05T13:23:23.298-07:00If you judge, then you do not understand. If you u...If you judge, then you do not understand. If you understand, you do not judge.<br /><br />Most of the major figures from Tibet validated Trungpa as a teacher, even conferring the title Vidhyadara on him. Some random blogging monk may dismiss him, but the Karmapa did not.kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12735451324931199027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-15500992933068646552013-11-15T14:29:11.042-08:002013-11-15T14:29:11.042-08:00PeterB, A quick last word, you obviously have a st...PeterB, A quick last word, you obviously have a strong devotional leaning. Its all good.j dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11132872831065085838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-21436780218431971222013-11-15T05:21:05.600-08:002013-11-15T05:21:05.600-08:00I have found fulfilment in the Orthodox Church.
Wh...I have found fulfilment in the Orthodox Church.<br />Why am I on a Buddhist forum ?<br />That's a fair enough question.<br />I came here via a link to another forum. <br />I have made my point and will leave it there.PeterBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06534121168726658880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-5193005973248925282013-11-15T04:44:18.348-08:002013-11-15T04:44:18.348-08:00PeterB, So why are you on a Buddhist forum? What h...PeterB, So why are you on a Buddhist forum? What happened after you left Trungpa, did you go through a lengthy dry spell? It happens to many and it can take months or years to find your feet again.<br />I hope you're no longer jaded and have found contentment.j dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11132872831065085838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-39427467630485697062013-11-15T02:26:31.294-08:002013-11-15T02:26:31.294-08:00My taking leave of Buddhism was exacerbated, but n...My taking leave of Buddhism was exacerbated, but not caused, by contact with Trungpa.<br />In fact I owe him a debt of gratitude.<br />He enabled me to go back and take a long cool look at Buddhist doctrine...PeterBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06534121168726658880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-28512350674441723042013-11-14T15:57:52.135-08:002013-11-14T15:57:52.135-08:00PeterB, Trungpa as a teacher, is not the best exam...PeterB, Trungpa as a teacher, is not the best example. Some people and teachers have an amazing knack for (cold reading) and sum people up quickly and will exploit if allowed to do so.<br />There's still a few genuine guru's and monks around that teach quietly and without fanfare.j dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11132872831065085838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-4104963534829554282013-11-14T04:39:20.648-08:002013-11-14T04:39:20.648-08:00390I was a student of CTR for some years. After a ...390I was a student of CTR for some years. After a while what was becoming clear about his behaviour was for me unsustainable in terms of my continued loyalty.<br />I left his Sangha, and eventually after several decades I left Buddha Dharma behind. <br />For me Trungpa's behaviour became a wake up call in terms not simply of the Guru/Student relationship, but in wider terms, to whit, the whole shaky and adolescent edifice on which Buddhism is built.PeterBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06534121168726658880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-68462231855881620612013-11-14T02:06:27.213-08:002013-11-14T02:06:27.213-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13986558137819248654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-66698542863357677422013-11-14T02:04:49.856-08:002013-11-14T02:04:49.856-08:00I don’t think what you think of a teacher has to b...I don’t think what you think of a teacher has to be placed on (blind) faith. <br /><br />As stories of the past in Tibet explain, there were exceptional but rare beings who practiced "crazy wisdom" and about whom students said that they only benefited from their actions. (Of course one should distinguish between short term harm/benefit and long term harm/benefit to judge such actions.)<br /><br />The problem is, that "crazy wisdom" can be abused to excuse or cover up short comings and sell these as wisdom. This would be indeed hypocrisy and a type of lie, fraudulent behaviour.<br /><br />I heard from many people stories of another (not so famous lama) Chime Rigzin Rinpoche, who also "practiced" crazy wisdom for his students sake, unlike Chögyam Trungpa, where students have reported to have been harmed, though this teacher’s students told crazy stories but the difference was, it helped them to understand their mind, and limitations better, they said, that they experienced such actions as a relief and a deeper understanding of themselves and their behavior/habitual tencencies/wrong views. For instance he threw a piece of meat into the face of a fanatical vegetarian, and she experienced this as if this tight mind and the views that formed this fanatical attitude relaxed and she could see better that she is by far to narrow minded in this. (As a background this artist worked in former art work with meat!) <br /><br />I lack time to share more stories, but this lama attracted the most strange persons like a former soldier from the Légion étrangère who had the rear of his car full of weapons – you might infer from it what this man had in mind and what a personality he was. But this lama was able to benefit such people. That’s why I have respect for those who have true freedom of mind and can perform such deeds only in order to benefit others. <br /><br />True "crazy wisdom" doesn’t harm oneself nor others but is of benefit, and I think this can be observed and there is no need to rely on blind faith. The problem nowadays seems to be that less realized teachers claim to have inner freedom and excuse or sell harmful deeds as "crazy wisdom".<br /><br />The Dalai Lama says:<br /><br />"Historically, although some Buddhist saints have acted with strange modes of ethical conduct, they were fully realized beings and knew what was of long-term benefit to others. But nowadays, such conduct is harmful to the Dharma and must be stopped. Even though one’s realizations may be equal to those of divine beings, one’s behavior must conform to convention. If someone says that since everyone has Buddha mind, any kind of conduct is acceptable, or that teachers do not need to follow ethical precepts, it indicates that they do not correctly understand emptiness or cause and effect.<br /><br />Everyone is accountable for his or her behavior. For someone with full realization, ingesting urine, feces, alcohol, and human flesh are all the same.² But if those Buddhist teachers who ethically misbehave were to eat feces or drink urine, I doubt they would enjoy it!<br /><br />The practice of tantra is never an excuse for unethical behavior."<br /><br />for more of HH the Dalai Lama’s opinion see here: http://info-buddhism.com/Ethics-in-the-Teacher-Student-Relationship.htmlAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13986558137819248654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-37118840219640875322013-11-10T21:12:05.667-08:002013-11-10T21:12:05.667-08:00Mudra? Or was he just po'd at someone?Mudra? Or was he just po'd at someone?David (TheDhamma.com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07714427477703354493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-76549686737966592762013-11-10T21:10:17.639-08:002013-11-10T21:10:17.639-08:00Saw this photo at dharmawheel.net
https://sconten...Saw this photo at dharmawheel.net<br /><br />https://scontent-a-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/68070_10151256676819920_1683775067_n.jpg<br />David (TheDhamma.com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07714427477703354493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-53390385943339013852013-11-09T12:05:33.767-08:002013-11-09T12:05:33.767-08:00Venerable: thus the section about sexual responsib...Venerable: thus the section about sexual responsibility. It's called wearing condoms. Russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756346663625583590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-29289802987606960052013-11-09T01:00:51.772-08:002013-11-09T01:00:51.772-08:00Dear Russell, you are quite right about the volunt...Dear Russell, you are quite right about the voluntary nature of the Five Precepts. Seeing their value both to oneself and others, and trusting in the Buddha’s judgment, a wise person tries to live by them. You are also correct in saying that having multiple sexual partners is not against the Precepts. But in the age of AIDS it would be the height of irresponsibility and bad judgment, as Osel Tendzin, Trungpa’s heir, and his sexual partners, willing and unwilling, found out to their cost. It could be said that Tendzin was doing no more that following the example of his teacher. Shravasti Dhammikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246408068143301108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-52200642304198592642013-11-07T23:57:39.215-08:002013-11-07T23:57:39.215-08:00I'd like it explained when the 5 Trainings bec...I'd like it explained when the 5 Trainings became Commandments. My understanding of the Pali is that it very much says something along the lines of "I undertake, will do my best to fulfil", it never gets close to "thou shalt".<br /><br />As for sexual Tantra...the Buddha talks about sexual responsibility, he never once says that multiple partners or giving your sexual partners screaming orgasms are contrary to his teachings for Lay pratitioners.Russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756346663625583590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-5160462747024138272013-11-06T19:57:55.224-08:002013-11-06T19:57:55.224-08:00When it comes to Mahayana one has to tread careful...When it comes to Mahayana one has to tread carefully when it comes to Trungpa. Many get seriously ruffled if one mentions his great appetite for the good things in life. More than a few still adore him.j dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11132872831065085838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-30015172671046907142013-11-05T18:09:11.548-08:002013-11-05T18:09:11.548-08:00Great article Bhante.
One should sometimes separa...Great article Bhante.<br /><br />One should sometimes separate the Guru's spiritual accomplishments and his/her behaviour. <br />Some of them could very well have vast spiritual attainments, but also fail miserably as a human.<br /><br />Think of this; a person who is very well respected with good integrity wins public office. After some time, he's elevated to the highest level, then he begins to change because power corrupts. He takes on a tyrannical manner.<br /><br />Absolute power , absolutely corrupts!<br /><br />So then what happens, do we still want this sort of person as our Guru?<br />This person has failed his final 'test'.<br /><br />How many venerated Buddhist masters throughout history has a tyrannical, bullying and boorish behaviour?<br /><br />Sexual tantra, poor observance of the Vinaya Pitaka was what drove the great Tsongkhapa to set up the Gelugpa then. He, for sure would not have tolerated 'crazy wisdom' as it is spelt out today.<br />The Gelugpa has no official Yogis in its ranks and Bhikkus are NOT allowed to practice sexual tantra. Whether this has deviated today...?<br /><br />Anyway, Tibetan Buddhism is really;<br />'Buddhism in theory, Hinduism in practice'.Patrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02742100926160179457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-39617780149916054022013-11-02T07:14:44.783-07:002013-11-02T07:14:44.783-07:00Dear Walter, thanks for your interesting comment. ...Dear Walter, thanks for your interesting comment. The Satipathana Sutta gives possible time-frames for enlightenment from seven days to seven years, “if you practice as I have taught”. Perhaps the Buddha should have added “and given your psychological dispositions”. However, in the meantime, we can, as you apparently did, untie some of out psychological knots which in itself would be a major achievement. However, I think the “within seven years/days” thing is not meant to be taken as an exact measurement but as an encouragement. <br />In the 1970s there was an officer in the Sri Lankan immigration department who responsible for western monks and who did her best to make our lives a misery. When some monks asked for a one month or two month visa extension she would say “What for?” and they would reply “Because I am meditation.” She would then say “The Buddha said that it you practice as you have been taught you will attain enlightenment within seven days. I’ll give you a seven day extension!” <br />Shravasti Dhammikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246408068143301108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-89544416689478947252013-11-01T08:06:56.352-07:002013-11-01T08:06:56.352-07:00@Brahmavihara - I once actually took the Satipatha...@Brahmavihara - I once actually took the Satipathanna Sutta's claim literally and practised very hard :) Well, I was disappointed that I did not become "enlightened", i.e. the kind of enligtenment I expected. But I did experienced very significant psychological transformation, like shaking off not a few "neurotic" states and phobias. For these I am ever grateful, and I am always trying to encourage people to try mindfulness meditation, etc.Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14473139174740412105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-72977645776944693292013-10-31T06:59:30.209-07:002013-10-31T06:59:30.209-07:00' this is the only claim of anything like a te...' this is the only claim of anything like a temporal certainty of great progress anywhere in Buddhist literature '<br /><br />There are, fortunately, several other instances.KoSahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673488407171806241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-39247403991888484892013-10-30T22:26:33.233-07:002013-10-30T22:26:33.233-07:00Nothing like a bit of oxymoronic wisdom to brighte...Nothing like a bit of oxymoronic wisdom to brighten up the day. You know, over the years I have heard about lots of unusual and sometimes questionable practises ascribed to Buddhism and of course in the end the individual Buddhist seeker has to take at least some responsibility for any misbehaviour of controversial teachers such as Trungpa Rinpoche, not withstanding his considerable contribution to the Dharma's journey into the West. After all isn't the practice of the Dharma meant to enhance one's discriminative faculties? I am reminded of the Beatles experience in Rishikesh with the Maharishi's apparently more carnal expressions of crazy wisdom. When the Beatles decided to leave because of this, The Maharishi asked John Lennon(their spokesman) why they were leaving. To which JL replied "well you should know why if you really have f----ng Cosmic consciousness"( Who had the crazy wisdom there?!) I have heard many claims and counter claims about the so called efficacy of esoteric Buddhism and Tantric Buddhism's claims about being the superior way or short path as the case may be. However if we are looking for claims about expedited forms of practice that may bring results quickly we need look no further than the good Ol' Satipatthana Sutta where the Buddha makes the claim that if the aspirant wishes to apply him or herself assiduously to the practice outlined therein then one can expect very considerable results or perhaps even supreme enlightenment in as little as seven days. Was this a statement of the Lord Buddha's "crazy Wisdom" perhaps?! But seriously, this is the only claim of anything like a temporal certainty of great progress anywhere in Buddhist literature and of course it is thought to be sourced from the Buddha's own mouth! So cultivating The Noble Eightfold Path (Sattipathana) really seems to hold the highground here but who ever really discusses this, let alone practice it, quietly and diligently. I am sure there are many who fall prey to some charismatic individual who seems to have "the answer" but of course the Buddha said that his teaching was an exoteric teaching, nothing with held. This is truly for those with "little dust" in their eyes, unadorned and in plain sight as it were. brahmaviharahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03882669862432841797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1012277645322483593.post-71497488064149608472013-10-30T17:55:48.301-07:002013-10-30T17:55:48.301-07:00Thank you Bhante, KoSa, and others for a lively re...Thank you Bhante, KoSa, and others for a lively reasoned discussion. I'd like to point out that we have to be careful about dismissing Buddhist tantra completely just because some "Chinese monks [you know] look upon tantra with the strongest disapproval." I am doubtful about this as a correct reason for dismissing Buddhist tantra. As Shakya Indrajala correctly pointed out, Chinese Chan/Japanese Zen appear to have similar problems vis-a-vis "crazy wisdom". <br /><br />As a case in point, if we look to Je Tsong Khapa's (following Atisa) hermeneutical and practical integration of sutra and tantra,we might come to a different, more sympathetic view. Careful comparative study and grounded field research may help sort out the wheat from the chaff. Chris Kanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03925274386636678949noreply@blogger.com